#014 - Alien Nation 1.09 "Three to Tango"

0:01 Humans and aliens working together I. Really want to dig more into their culture. It's a mirror up to humanity. Social commentary through allegorical storytelling. Wild, angry old man opinions.

0:14 That's an erogenous song. Prepare the channel with catalyzing emission. Oh my. Todd is just a stupid guy with an obsession for Wikipedia. An ass that you laugh at. Good grief. Oh. What a twerk. Brilliant science fiction storytelling. You definitely need to watch this ever. Can we give Eric Pierpoint an Emmy for next week's episode? George Francesco is one of my all time favorite characters. The show is going to go to places that I really enjoy. Sour milk is a good thing to the tanked knees. Soft with a subtle finish.

0:45 This is a packed episode. Stay tuned, listeners. We're both fans of Star Trek. Watching Alien Nation and we enjoy. It I am one of your hosts. Todd, this is Nick. This is the Alienating Ourselves podcast. Greetings humans and newcomers, and welcome back to Alienating Ourselves, the podcast where we examine sci-fi entertainment with a focus on aliens who need three people to procreate and the humans that need only two people to procreate. Three or more people to have an extra fun time, and sometimes maybe just one person to, you know, relieve some stress.

1:19 I am one of your hosts, Todd. With tonight's episode being about the sensitive topics of sex, procreation and religion, maybe it's a good thing I couldn't think of one of my usual corny jokes to say during the outro. Did you mean intro or do you not have anything for the outro either? Real professional. And joining me, as always, is a guy who's probably tired of my corny jokes already. Anyway, it's Nick. Nick, how's it going? Every week is like the first time. So I'm I'm doing just fine. We are we are going to get into some stuff today.

1:52 I didn't expect this one. I mean, the title is about dancing, so I'm naive. I just, I thought it was going to be pretty chill, a lot of maybe wind blowing through the curtains metaphorically. But no, no, we are going to get into it and so are some of the people on the screen. So let's get into it. Tonight, as Todd and I continue alienating ourselves, we will explore Season 1, Episode 9, Three to Tango, which originally aired back in November 13th of 1989. A series of murders of phenom, a rare kind of tanktonese needed for catalyzing reproduction, raises fears that purists are trying to stop the tanktonese from breeding.

2:36 Francisco asks Albert to be the phenom for his and Susan's next child. And it took me a week or two longer than everyone else, but eventually even Nick understood that this title is a double entendre and a very, very obvious 1. So that's what you all are dealing with. This is written by Diane Froloff and Andrew Schneider, and they've written several episodes of the series 3 Alien Nation TV movies and they're still busy today. And it's directed by Stan Lathan. He directed 62 episodes of Rock starring Charles Dutton right after this, and two episodes of Alien Nation, this one and Partners, which is still a few episodes away.

3:15 We're going to, it's going to take a while to get to Partners. So just to get things going. What was your initial take on this episode, Todd? OK, so I was really looking forward to this one because we talked before about how we've seen this show before and we remember some things and not other things. This was the one that I don't know if I would say I remembered everything vividly, but it's the episode with certain themes and certain moments that I think I remembered possibly more than any other episode.

3:44 If not, then just a lot. And I would say this is the best episode so far. It's one of the best of the whole series because I have peeked ahead. So I've I've at least skimmed through every episode, or at least almost every episode for the rest of the season. And so I'd know some things to come. And yeah, I think this is one of the best of the whole season. And I think it's just in general a great episode of science fiction overall. So what did you think? I think you're right on all counts. I think it's a return to form for the creatives behind the show.

4:23 I think Diane and Andrew, as a writing team, they're just on a roll with this episode. And when you talk about science fiction, I mean, taking us someplace we haven't been before, whether it's a metaphor or just saying, hey, what if you had it work like this for people and having a very big imagination. This episode has some big imagination in it, So yes, the part of your brain that's wired for sci-fi and loves to have your thoughts expanded. Oh my goodness, this was expansive. So I I loved a lot of things about this episode.

4:59 I loved how it was done and there are things that I wanted to see more of in previous episodes that weren't that big a deal and we get those too. So a lot of things to love in this one. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I guess we'll move on to our first section, the sour milk section, where we talk about the good stuff from the episode. Do you want me to go first or do you want to get started? You go first. OK, so this is going to be very similar to my first impression though over just the overall premise for this episode is brilliant science fiction storytelling.

5:32 I mean, they take one little twist and make a whole story out of it, and that is that the Tinctonies technically have 3 genders. And yes, one of them is very similar to the normal male gender, but they still have different anatomy and they're there for different purpose. And therefore there's a bit of their society that is kind of separate because of it. And so there is technically 1/3 gender. And I love how just taking that one little science fiction twist can lead to such great storytelling. It kind of reminds me of the Mocklin race from The Orville where they take a similar twist and milk it for all it's worth.

6:17 I mean multiple episodes there and that is the Mocklands supposedly have only one race. I think you mean one gender, not one race. That they are all male now there's a few complications there. I don't know if I want to spoil it, but you know, there, there's some issues there. Not everything is as it appears. And like I said, they milk that for all it's worth. And it leads to a lot of episodes that are very good allegorical storytelling. And so this one episode of Alienation kind of reminded me of of that, of taking that one little twist and, and making a whole story out of it.

6:53 Yeah, I think when I would look at science fiction and someone would tell me you have a very human story that could take place on Earth with normal people in it, except it has one weird thing about it and one stretch of the imagination. And then you have people kind of moving around that in orbit and how it changes things and mixes stuff up. And that's a big part of this one. So I definitely agree about that. And I, I think those of us who love the genre, we might even get a little bit used to people not being as creative.

7:27 We just do the same things that we enjoy over and over again. I, I can't get enough time travel, But you know, we've seen a lot of that. But if somebody does something we've never seen before in the genre, whoa. And I've seen this episode before. And when I saw it, I was a kid. So I'm rewatching it with like this younger version of myself telling me what's going to happen and he is wrong. There are things that I did not remember at all, I think because I genuinely didn't understand them just because it was it was too big and weird an idea for me.

8:00 And there are other things that I misinterpreted because it's subtle and sweet. So I will say my next one to kind of kick off of that is the ritual. So in Star Trek, we have some creative ideas and we have some alien races that do things different than us and, and some of them will have rituals. And I love the end of Star Trek 3. It's not for everybody, but it's a big elaborate ritual. This episode kind of stands out on its ear. Somebody sat down with a memo book and went to town on the details of the ritual.

8:37 And they didn't just make it rich and alien and complicated. They went as far as to try and make something beautiful. And I think they kind of succeeded. So if you're a fan of a, a universe that doesn't really exist, if you like to imagine living in the wizarding world or the Star Trek Galaxy or the Star Wars Galaxy, you want these kinds of things that make it feel real and you you like to learn these details. But this, just this episode, they had rituals, multiple rituals that were so detailed.

9:08 They felt very fleshed out and real and kind of personal. And that was, that's like a big one for me for this episode. I love that. So some of those details would be things like the candles and certain reading of the Book of Celine and Anarcho. And some of that is because they consider procreation to be a very spiritual thing. And so it does almost seem like a religious ceremony. But another thing I liked about it was the use of the veils, because after they're done with the ceremony and and Matt and Susan go up and they do the other half of the procreation.

9:46 Hang on, you mean George and Susan, not Matt and Susan? You know, it's typical, you know, husband and wife type stuff, but the benam is supposed to it's almost like they are helping people out by doing a service that is it's not even like it's voluntary. It's a part of their the anatomy of their race that there is this third gender and they have to do what they do, but they are not part of the husband and wife marriage unit. And therefore the use of the veils by both people kind of puts up a little bit of separation and says that, you know, yes, their bodies have to interlock in one particular way because of what has to happen, but that's the only thing that has to happen and everything else is separate.

10:34 So like you said, there are a lot of details of ceremony. And like I said, there's some of the candles and music and stuff like that, But the main thing to me was the veils. I thought that was very important and kind of a message that said that yes, this sex thing is a spiritual thing, but it's also a very different thing. And it also kind of made it AAI don't know if I'm explaining it very well, but kind of a a separate alien thing and different from the way humans view it and what humans have to do to procreate.

11:08 So yeah, I like that, that detail most of all. Things like that. Where George will recite things in Tanktonese like scripture and Albert, who is depicted as sort of a simple character. He doesn't say anything great or lofty, but he does announce things and coordinate things like a wedding planner or something, or a minister or an elder in a religious group. Or he just, he'll say, and now we're moving on to this and now you can do this. And he, he speaks with a kind of casual authority and it it really, it's a cool aspect of that character without making him different or retconning him in some way.

11:52 So yeah, those scenes were wonderful. I will say one of my next ones is just, we've seen this in a couple of other episodes, but I feel sometimes in an episode that the writer will sit down and have a thesis statement that they're going to try for or like a theme and they'll kind of move around that. And in a really good episode, when it isn't edited to death or something across different series, they'll manage to circle back to that. They'll have like 1 central idea. And this, this episode covers a ton of stuff.

12:24 But I feel like their thesis was about faith and they have these reasons for Matt and George to interact. And Matt's pretty self-conscious about it. He has an attitude about the church and he grew up Catholic and George talks about how they weren't allowed to practice their beliefs on the ship as slaves so he doesn't understand someone voluntarily giving up their rituals because it was denied to him. And Matt tells him some stuff pretty bluntly before saying he don't want to talk about it anymore.

12:54 But this keeps coming up throughout the episode and it is hard to talk about these things without it feeling preachy or without it feeling forced. And I feel like it was done in a really cool way. So the things that the Tanktonese are doing, we see it through Matt's eyes and the other humans. And at first, at the beginning of the episode, it's just weird. We come in as outsiders and we're like, it's just weird. And then we find out more about it. We're like, Oh no, that's crazy. And as we go along, we get to see Matt kind of converted.

13:25 And during the process, he doesn't know what he's going to have to watch. He's coming over for day one and it's just presenting Albert as this third. But then Day 2 is supposed to actually be the getting together, so he doesn't know what he's in for. And we're all happy as viewers when they say, OK, everybody turn around and look the other way. But Matt peeks. He actually peeks. I'm a rule follower. I don't like the idea of getting in trouble. So I was worried about him peeking. But when he peeks, he kind of, it's almost like he has a little bit of a religious experience.

13:57 It's like he starts to see it as something beautiful or majestic and not the way he thought about it before. George uses the word brilliant to talk about the dismissive and vulgar way he talks about these things. Ober's quitting his job to return to the monastery. Too bad. Can't blame him though. 700 women, you know, get that kind of accident around a cop shot. You know your lewd innuendo is grossly inappropriate. Oh well, that's me, Mr. Grossly Inappropriate. Would you like me to make jokes about your Virgin Mary giving birth?

14:27 Now that has comedic possibilities. Hey watch it. So this Mary says to the Joseph, same. It's not the same thing. Yes, it is. Stop looking at us with your purient human eyes. So he kind of, he kind of seems to see it as transcendent and he thinks differently about his own faith and history after that. So I thought it was really cool that they had an idea in all this other stuff going on to try and have a sort of message about faith. And they managed to, I think, stick the landing without saying anything directly to the screen about it.

15:01 Matt doesn't announce anything. We just figure it out. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with you about everything. And in fact, two of my bullet points are directly related to two things you just talked about. So I'll go ahead and double up and say in response to what you're talking about. When it comes to Albert, I like how Albert acts smarter and more confident in certain portions of this episode. He's much more in his element when he knows what his purpose is and that it's a higher purpose. And I know that in that very first episode, people were picking on Albert and calling him lightning and stuff like that was supposed to be like a sarcastic nickname.

15:40 And the whole reason he's called Albert Einstein in the 1st place is a sarcastic naming because he's not as bright as others. And there is even a moment in this episode where he looks like a little bit, I won't say loss or bewildered because he was back on familiar ground, but it's just like he was a little bit head in his clouds, head in the clouds type of of thing going on. But he has also proven that he's smarter. Like that one episode where they were playing basketball and he was like doing statistics and in his head and stuff like that.

16:11 So I mean, he is smart and people give him credit for. But this was one of those episodes where, like I said, he was in his element and so he was acting more confident. And then the other thing that you were talking about was how they mixed sex and faith in the same episode. And you would think they wouldn't go together, but they they did a really good job of making these two somewhat separate topics meld very well together. And so I like the way they blended them. But as much as I like the episode 1 of the things that of course, as usual, drags it down a little bit, is Matt's overreaction to everything and how he's got to continue to be the caveman and and, you know, insert his own viewpoint on to everything.

16:56 And of course that that's an issue. So I do like how and why George loses his temper on Matt one time. And and you mentioned it, he says, stop looking at us with your purient eyes when Matt keeps making fun of them. George gets the point across that look, this is this is the way we are and it's connected to our faith. And he, you know, makes a good point point and he deserves to to get angry. And of course, it's frustrating as usual that Matt still just doesn't get it. So so yeah, those are are two of the big points I was going to bring up.

17:34 And like I said, they were related to to what you were talking about. So I'll let. You take a turn now. I don't, I still don't have a good shorthand way of saying it, but there's this effect when you are, when a person is maybe becoming open minded and they're, you know, still caught up in some of their prejudices, but they have eye opening moments based on the people around them who are worse than them. And Matt is our stand in and our progressive. Matt is the character in the show who is open minded.

18:11 He's still racist and biased and mean and dismissive and says stuff he shouldn't. And he's the one, he's the most progressive character in the show. That's human so far. I think the others might be more, except that they are, they're keeping it to themselves. So we see him challenging his own prejudices. He continues to bother Todd more than me. I think he's kind of hilarious. But when he does say these things and do these things, I think if you have a friend who is who cares about you enough that they can forgive or ridiculous things you say.

18:49 Or when you say something very stereotypical, like the propaganda you've heard a bunch of ignorant people say, but you ask it as a genuine question because everybody in the group asks it at some point or another. Like, well, I don't get it. Why can't you just blah, blah, blah, or something and people roll their eyes. Somebody cares about you in that group will be like, look, you're worth it. Let me talk you through this. And Matt does that all the time. So if there's an opportunity to misunderstand, to misconstrue, he's going to do that in this episode.

19:20 Yeah. I don't know. And sometimes it feels like a very. He says, I don't know, man. It sounds pretty kinky to me. He's working through. He's trying. But the other two, I think Dobbs and the captain are both tapped to participate. And math has to kind of force them into it just to be a good friend. And then they still dip the second time. Yeah, we may come back to that. My next one, I guess I'll do acting because we mentioned Albert. Albert's character is nuanced, and I like his interactions with everyone in this episode, especially Dobbs.

19:56 So Dobbs doesn't make Albert quit exactly. But Dobbs does a couple of He tries to hook Albert up with somebody, and we didn't know Albert was already struggling. With his role in life and when to be normal in his opinion, and realizing since he's this different kind of tanktonese, he feels like he'll never be normal. So he has to go back to his life in the monastery. He had four. So he quits the police station and being maintenance and Dobbs is upset at first just because he feels guilty for like running Albert off.

20:30 But then Albert is replaced by this guy and Dobbs is he looks so upset and he's not just because his stuff has moved around, but he's talking about how great Albert was and the other guy never did this and the other guy did that. And so when Albert comes back, Dobbs seems really broken up. And Albert seemed to miss Dobbs most of all. Like he's like, I missed you too, man. He's like looking at him and he he comes back. Dobbs has an attitude. He's kind of like, Hey, these floors aren't clean and, and Albert just pushes him off, hands him a new mug and walks right past him because he's just happy to be back and he cares about everybody.

21:11 I I don't think we have a lot of characters in fiction like Albert. He's sort of a faithful innocent, and that's unique. I mean, he's supposed to be slow, but they show him really, they only really show that in him Speaking simply. And what you said about being in your element, I think I've experienced this before where someone thinks that they are not as smart as other people in the group and it really based on where you're standing. There are things that one person is much more intelligent about.

21:40 But if we're not in their venue, if we're not talking about what they're comfortable talking about, they feel like the slowest one in the room. But then if you guys switch the conversation to basketball, suddenly there's no one Dumber in the room than me and I'll just get quiet until I can get you talking about movies. So yes, Albert, it strikes me that if you are at the monastery, he's one of the most competent people you'll encounter. But if you encounter him at the real world and he kind of says that he's not good with people, especially women, which is ironic, we find out it's everywhere else.

22:13 He seems completely out of his L. So I love the way his character was in this episode. Yeah, yeah, me too. And I, I can relate to that. You know, when I get into a a situation where I have to have a conversation or I'm around other people and they're talking about sports or something like that, I'm just like, I have nothing relate to. I'm just sitting here, standing here. And then if either the conversation naturally changes to something like TV or movies, or I bring something up to switch it, then depending on what we're talking about, it might be a lot to to shut me up and people probably wish I would go back to being quiet.

22:49 That's confirmed. Yeah. So, yeah, I can. I can relate to that. And there was something else I was going to respond to about what you said, but then I forgot about it, so I don't know, maybe I'll remember it later. But really, my last bullet point. And it's strange because as much as I like this episode, I really only had four main bullet points. And I think it's because the things I liked about it were so broad and sweeping that I just didn't need a whole lot of specific points. But everything about the acting, directing, editing, and music from those last few minutes minutes of the episode are nearly perfect.

23:26 There's just something special about the timing of the facial expressions, the actions, and the music that are very memorable. Like I said this, this episode really stuck with me through the years and watching again, I think it's that scene in the way everything just seems to be timed erfectly, I think is what helps helps it stick with me through through all the years in between rewatches. And it seems to be a trend of this show that they saved the best for those last few minutes. Because this is not the first episode where it's like, oh, more police stuff, more more annoying, frustrating mad stuff.

24:02 And then whatever it is that comes to the end, it's like, Oh well, that makes the whole episode worth it. And I'm OK with that formula. I just wish that more of the good stuff would be sprinkled out throughout all of the episode rather than having to get through stuff that is frustrating just to have the Super good stuff hit you at the very end. Well, the Halloween episode ends with George happily at home and us having good feelings, and that's a nice bow on it. This one, it feels like you get a whole elaborate chapter and a bunch of interaction and a bunch of sort of character development.

24:39 So I'll say just about the whole episode, but especially the last scene. One of my things that you've talked about in previous episodes is the on point work of Eric Pierpoint in his acting. So I just talked about how Albert gets a chance to play this nuanced character. But Eric Pierpoint, George Francisco, this is a great episode for his character. He gets to do several things. So like, for one thing, he's just gushing emotion. As you already said, he gets to go off on mad at one point. And, you know, that's always good, if a little bit uncomfortable.

25:16 He gets to kind of put him in his place. And he does a really good job of comparing Matt's dismissive attitude toward what George holds sacred. As George brings up the idea of ridiculing the Virgin Mary. He doesn't actually even get that far. He just brings up the idea. And it's enough to set Matt off, even though he's a wayward former Catholic. But after that, he also, when he invites his friends to join in this ceremony, George Francisco looks like he is about to break down in tears of joy. He is just like exploding with how excited he is and proud he is.

25:57 And when he says, I am in, I have selected you like, he's not even asking them. Like, hey, would you mind helping me out with this? I need pallbearers. I need grooms. But no, he's like, I have chosen you to join in this activity. And I need three men who are important to my livelihood or something like that. And he's just, the man really does look like he's about to cry. It's powerful. So then when they're all over at his house and we're doing this final ceremony, George is, I don't think we get to see grown men like this.

26:33 He is like almost skipping around the room. He's so excited. He's thoroughly just joyous about everything that's happening. Like he wants to hug everybody, put a hand on everybody's shoulder, tell them all what's about to happen and how great it is and how great it is that they're all there. So it's just some really cool acting from Eric Airpoint. And I think if he ever watches this episode again, he'll say no matter what his acting journey has been, I don't think I'll ever get to do something like that again.

27:03 That's crazy how that was written for that. But one more thing he gets to do is when Matt is asking about erogenous zones, George gets to do this weird guy talk thing where he like pulls him in and gets swaggery and talks out the side of his mouth looks left and right and he's like, OK, you want to know what's really going on? And he totally misunderstands and thinks Matt is asking for advice with women and like how to hit on women who are newcomers or something. So George gets the most lascivious we've ever seen him and he's having fun doing.

27:37 Are you going to eat that or play with it? George, let me ask you something. You touch a newcomer on the small of her back and bingo. Fireworks, right? What else? Matt, are you dating a tynkanese woman I'm. Just curious, OK. Is it Cathy George? I like Cathy George. I understand bridge of the nose, shoulder blades and we're especially sensitive on the backs of our knees. When you see a woman, what do you look for? What turns you on? When a woman's speckles flow down her neck onto her back and then narrow into a fine delicate line, that's speckled.

28:13 Also, the ear valleys when they end in a swirling little S shape. And more of this. And I'll need a hot shower. I just, I love that you get all of those things crammed into one episode for him and it's not even, the story isn't really about him. It's like he's the maybe the third most important character in it and they give him so much to do. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Yes, Eric Pierpoint is great as usual and especially in this episode for a lot of the the ways that you just articulated. But I know it's 30 five years later, but can we give Eric Pierpoint an Emmy for next week's episode?

28:51 I I think it's next week's episode if it's the one I'm thinking about. I mean, Oh my goodness, it blows out the. Next episode, is that what you said? Yeah, yeah. Oh well, I I have no idea. We'll. Oh, I do have an idea. Yeah, I, I, I think if I remember correctly, the next episode is the game. Yeah. Yeah. We will get there. But if it's if it's like I think it is, yeah. They've they've had several opportunities for actors to do something that we mentioned before. It's exactly like you're watching a a powerful social drama, just without any fantastical elements.

29:32 And that they were doing an Emmy performance. They just happen to have ridiculous alien makeup on. So, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that you're saying that we're looking forward to something like that again, I only, I think I've only seen it once. I think these episodes are so good, but I've seen this one and that one once and it's just, I don't want to say scarred me for life, but it has made an indelible impact. So yeah, we'll see how I experienced that next week, but I think I'm ready to move on and I'll save my other little weird bits for I have to mention this.

30:02 OK, all right, so we'll move on to salt water. That's the bad stuff. I do have 5 bullet points here. To be honest. They're all minor. They come nowhere close to to ruining this otherwise great episode. My first one is, I mean, I've kind of already mentioned this, but this is a little bit more specific. No big surprise, but Matt is a terrible teacher too because he's trying to teach Kathy how to dance and his instructions are basically listen to the beat, clap and count. That's it. Now, granted, there might have been some teaching that went on off camera before the scene started ahead of time, but still, he's not really given a whole lot of details.

30:45 He's not saying, you know, move this foot here, move that forward, watch my feet or whatever. He's basically just like, listen to the beat. And it's like some people just don't have rhythm. I'm sorry, Matt, I was afraid of this. This is why I wanted you just to recommend a dance. School, it's not that hard. It's not that hard. Just listen to the beat, OK? Get the rhythm right. Yeah, yeah, let's try it without the music. I know sometimes if I if I does grant it doesn't happen that much anymore, but the rare times I might be somewhere where there's music and clapping going on, I literally have to concentrate.

31:31 It's like clap now, No, no, now oh I'm off the beat crap. And so I have no rhythm either. So I know how it is. And so, yeah, he is just not doing a good enough job. And it's also a scene where he's back in a tank top again. And when she pointed out to him that he was touching one of her erogenous zones, I don't think he moved his hand away right away. OK. Let's try it without the music. What? Where you're touching me on my back, That's an erogenous zone. Erogenous, sexually rousing. I like the inside of your thigh.

32:10 I get it, I get it. How do you know about the inside of my thigh? We've been studying comparative Physiology at UCLA. How can I teach you how to dance if I can't touch the small of your back? You can. Just a little higher. Higher. What's that good? So so yeah, some annoying things going on in that scene. There are scenes in movies where a person says they can't dance or they want to dance or they need to dance, and another character throws on a song and just grabs one of their hands and decides they're going to teach them this weird impromptu lesson.

32:49 I don't watch a lot of those movies, but I mean, the only example I can think of is Clerks 2 with Rosario Dawson. But in most of those scenes, it doesn't work out at all. And one of the two doesn't have great rhythm. And that's feels like what's happening here. At first, Kathy doesn't seem like she can do it. But we also, we come in in the middle, we don't see them have that conversation. We come in and they're already trying to dance. It's weird too, because we just saw a couple get blown away in bed with a shotgun and then suddenly they're dancing.

33:20 But the implication she implies, it sounds like she's saying that newcomers don't dance, like they have no cultural dancing and she wants to learn. And when he really shows it to her and she does start to get it, it's kind of like showing someone ice cream for the first time. Like, hey, this is great. I really like this. So I don't know. They didn't go into that a lot, but I do want to talk about that scene. I think that's probably coming up later, But so I'll say there were only two suspects. We catch, we catch the killer.

33:59 If you guys are not remembering names, it's handy. The killer's named Keller. So Keller, the killer is caught about halfway through. A big mean white guy, religious zealot, purist. He says that we're in a state of war. You need to respect my Geneva Convention rights. So then we're we have the viewers, we're pretty confident. We see where this is going. The guys at the monastery act very extreme when they're pushed. There's some haughty glances. And when Matt starts to suggest that this could have like there could be someone contributing to this guy's killing spree from within and giving him information, I feel like there's only two suspects after you catch him.

34:45 And when they run over to the monastery, we're like, which of these two jerk guys is it going to be? And we see one of the two jerk guys immediately. So we're all, I think, as viewers like, oh, it's the other one. Yeah, that was that was one of mine is that we're we're pretty sure there's not going to be like a A twist here. Like within the last 20 minutes you're going to be like, oh, that's what's going to happen. I think it was a bigger twist seeing the guy in a suit instead of a shroud. But yes, that not a big jump there.

35:20 What's another one of your salt waters? OK, so the Tanktonese have been here for five years. And in fact, the episode opens with a radio port talking about how they're breeding so much and yet it is not common knowledge how they procreate because Matt says he didn't believe what he heard about binoms the the the third gender. And I'm like, how is this not come up sooner? And how is it that Matt is still not believing things? You would think that this would be something that would be on talk shows or documentaries, docudramas, just even like the Tanktonese soap operas.

35:57 It you'd think it would just be common knowledge by now that yes, they have a third gender. It's a real thing. This is how it works. And everybody be like, oh, that is weird, but we're used to it by now. But of course, as, as as I said, Matt is a caveman, so he's ignoring everything he's here hearing. He's not hearing enough, whatever. And even when he does hear it, he's not believing it. And so of course he has to act shocked in this episode. So yeah, it just seems like one of those things that would be figured out by now.

36:25 There are some. Examples throughout the show that because of the narrative needing to go a certain way, they have detectives not asking very basic questions or knowing very basic things. So that does seem like a thing. And we have a throwaway line where George says they don't talk about it because of the the prejudice that they encounter when they do. They keep it very personal and we explore the whole spiritual side of it. But yes, it is a especially since the show starts with hearing people talk, like you said, about the boom in population.

37:01 We find out throughout the episode how hard it is for them to procreate. They don't mention that this episode kind of eliminates the entire concept of teen pregnancy or accidental pregnancy or something. It's not that easy for the newcomers to get pregnant, so every single child is planned for the process and that says something too, I guess. But my next one is just how disappointed I am in Captain Grazer and Dobbs. So when they when they aren't up for the first event, they both one of them says, Grazer says, I'd love to, man, but I have to go to the ballet tonight.

37:40 And he starts flipping through his calendar. And Dobbs is like, you know what? I also have to go to the ballet,

37:49 come up with his own thing. George isn't suspicious at all, maybe because he's so sure that someone would be honored to participate. And Matt pushes them into it. But the second night, George just tells us and Matt that unfortunately, Razor and Dobbs can't make it because both of them have to visit their moms in the hospital on the same night. They're not even trying that hard. So I'm just, I gotta say, they really let me down. I'm really upset with them about that. And it turned out to be a beautiful thing.

38:19 Now I will agree with you to a certain extent. Yes, it's disappointing they turn stuff down, but in the and this is actually a bullet point that I have, I'll skip over my third one of the 4th 1. I'm actually a little bit disappointed in George though, because it's weird to me that George gives Matt Grazer and Dobbs such little notice. He doesn't say, oh guys, this is coming up three nights from now. He's like, oh, tonight, I'm just telling you right now, but it's tonight and it's a two night ceremony, so you'll need to reserve your calendar for tomorrow night too.

38:53 It's like George, come on, give some people some notice. I mean, I know you're an alien, but that's just a nice normal human thing to do. And also in defense of Grazer, not only did he have short notice, but he didn't know he was going to have to clean somebody's feet when he went either. So in a way, I don't blame him for getting out of the second night. So George really needs to do a little bit better making sure he takes other people's calendars into consideration. While you brought it up, I will say that we get to see Buck for two seconds in this episode.

39:29 And I don't have a lot to say about Buck except he's he's deadpan for this episode and it worked for me. He doesn't look bored. I'm imagining that he's just sort of casual, serious, I guess he's not really trying to emote much of anything. So when they tell Grazer, Captain Grazer, who's already just got a swollen ego and thinks so much of himself, that he has this important part to play in the ceremony and he like. Huffs himself up and looks so self important. He's like, what is it? What is it? And Buck walks over and says you have to wash his feet.

40:12 And he says it's sort of like, you're going to take the trash out. He just says this like, flat affect maybe my favorite thing that Buck has said in the show because he just looks so nonplussed and blah, like, yeah, he says this is what you're going to do in here in a second. It's like, oh, oh, that's great. I don't have anywhere else to talk about Buck, so I'll plug that in. While you're saying that I thought that it was weird when we find out George is culturally insensitive for hooking Albert up, that George turns around and does the same thing to Matt.

40:48 So Dobbs is positive he's doing Albert a favor. He sets him up with the the snack cart girl. You know what? I didn't even write down this stuff in my notes. I have it further down and I'll find it in a minute. But she pushes around a snack cart that has a thing on it for coffee, tea, soda, soda, cola drinks. And it also has signs that say things like intestines. And her name is Mae. You can give that away if you want. But she she's sweet and she seems kind of silly and basic. I guess. I don't know.

41:27 I don't want a nice way to say it. And Albert is sort of into her, but Dobbs thinks he's helping Albert out by passing this girl a note from Albert asking her out. And it freaks Albert out. And George is like, he doesn't know. Albert's been very sheltered. But then George tries to hook Matt up with Kathy, and he invites Kathy to the thing without telling Matt. So Kathy shows up, and he's back to the the weird eyebrow raising, like, winking version of George at the beginning of the episode. Like, hey, I knew you'd be pleased.

41:58 Daffy's here. Nudge, nudge. It's like, dude, that's pretty much what Dobbs did. So I guess they can both be like horrible and pushy and insensitive without thinking about it. Yeah, but maybe they're on to something. I don't know if I should say anything more. Oh, no, I'm just saying it's it's George is acting very, I don't know. I felt the two men were largely doing the same thing. I thought at first Dobbs was horrible and I was mad because of how it blew up. But it turns out Dobbs had no way of knowing like the very, very particular inner workings of Albert's mind.

42:36 And George didn't really bother to ask Matt a lot of follow up questions. He did the same thing Dobbs did where he's like, I'm going to help you out, buddy. I know what you're really like and wink. And it's like, oh, oh, shoot, OK. That's just how I read it. All right, so I've got, oh, this is a super minor nitpick, so. Rest of mine and minor. Yeah, so talking about police work, there's a scene where they're thinking there's a suspect in an apartment and I didn't totally follow why they were there.

43:06 It didn't really matter. I didn't care but it involved both of them firing their weapons and then now it's kind of off camera. So I'm not positive. But considering his positioning and his motion, I think Matt sticks his gun in his pants because apparently he refuses to wear police issued holsters. And now I'm not an expert on weapons either, but if my understanding is that guns heat up when they get fired, especially if they're fired more than once. And I'm wondering, would that gun be hot enough that if he is sticking his pants that he would be burning his skin?

43:43 I can go ahead and take this opportunity to jump to my section. Yikes, Sykes, Yikes, Yikes, Yikes bad Sykes. I hate these know it all muffin heads who come from outer space. Frenchman, a Russian and a sponge head. They're a boat in the middle of the ocean. Why stop with running them back to Slag Town? Why don't we just kill them? You are emotionally involved. It makes for bad police work. Just what's that guy doing over there? Quick guy. What was that name again? Makes for bad police work. Bad police work.

44:13 Yikes. Yikes. Yikes. I'm Kathy Frankel. Matt Sykes. Yeah, I know. In your language, Sykes means excrement and cranium. Yikes, Yikes, Yikes, Yikes, Yikes. Sykes, Sykes, Sykes. Where we talking about Matthews likes questionable police actions and possibly how often he almost shoots an innocent person. And I also think it's a good time to just indulge Todd questioning everything that Gary Graham does in terms of acting choices. But when they come into this apartment and they announce themselves, it's a weird apartment too.

44:50 If this is ever released in Blu-ray and you can go back and just look at Keller's apartment, I feel like they put a ton of weird crap on the walls and fridge that I can't make out. I saw a framed sketch of Sigmund Freud and but there's like a person on the fridge and I think a few other things, and it's just, it's not clear enough on my DVD to make it out. But they announce themselves, nothing happens. There's a door closed. They move up to it nodding at each other. You know, they're in police action mode.

45:22 And then George hears Keller on the other side of the door cock his shotgun, which is his signature move, and pushes Matt out of the way at the last second, and both of them are clear and blam, the guy blows a big hole in the middle of the door. So now Matt is on the floor and George is on the floor, and they look at each other and they look at the door, and they nod the same way. I guess you would like, you know, you go to the left, you go to the right. You know, what's our plan? What's our next?

45:52 They have a moment to think. And the plan they've come up with is for Matt to lay down in the middle of the front, in front of the door on the ground, and George to stand to the side and, quote, cover him. And then they both just unload as many bullets into the door as they possibly can. I don't know the right thing for police to do in this situation. Whereas, quote, suspect has fired a shotgun through a door and I get firing back, but now we are just going to shoot as many holes through this door as we possibly can.

46:22 Did not seem like it was. It was the best response. He's gone out the window. They're just shooting at nothing. But that was I found it to be questionable. Police work. Just an execution. I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember. Do they ever once announce themselves as police officers or say you're under arrest or come out? I mean, even if that's useless, even if it's kind of pointless and futile because the guy's going to fire, isn't that just what they're supposed to do procedurally anyway? And maybe they did and I just don't remember.

46:58 They announced themselves when they busted in. Oh OK. But then it was quiet and still and they were looking for an attack from any angle. But yes, I think there's a moment. I would be curious to ask my friend with the police experience again if I have time. But like, what? What you could possibly because I know you're supposed to try things like de escalation, but technically, they've already been shot at. If they had shot back instantly, I think I would have gotten it. But that's not what happens.

47:27 Blam through the door. And then there's like this moment of silence where they look at each other like, what's our next move? What do you think? I don't know. You know what we should do? Yeah, that's what we should do. And then they just unload on the door. This is where. I don't know. You take 3 steps back, you go into the hallway, you're like, look, man, there's no way out. So and so is going to cover the fire escape, you know, come out quietly, throw down the gun. They can get behind. And no, no, this is our plan.

47:53 But anyway, that was my biggest thing. I didn't notice him put the gun in his pants. I I thought I was watching for those things now, but it doesn't surprise me at all. I think that that falls definitely under him almost shooting himself for an innocent person. Yeah, I guess it does beg the question, how many seconds does it take for self-defense to become murder you? Know, and I mean my my brothers and sisters in the police force, if a person shoots a shotgun at you, I'm going to judge fictional characters more than you if you fire back 3 seconds later instead of one second.

48:26 But if you are telling a story,

48:31 if you go to your car, talk to some people, come back and then just start shooting everything, the story doesn't play as well. But yes, what else do you have in negatives? So I've got one more and it's another very minor nitpick. So as much as I like the story overall, including Albert's involvement in it, he's not with the order very long before he leaves it again, which means he's away from his job at the police station a little while and then he's back in the police state. It's like he's a little bit of a ping pong in this episode.

49:04 It's like he doesn't stay in anyone place very long. And so it, it almost, it's like it kind of undercuts his decision to leave the order because he's not even at the order for very long. Same thing with the police station. He's gone, they bring in his replacement for one day, and then he's back. It all happens pretty quickly. And it's one of those things where I can't help but wonder, did this actually take a week or two of story time? It just doesn't seem like it there. Again, I think this is all happening concurrently with George having people over for two nights in a row.

49:40 So I think this does all happen very quickly. So basically Albert went back to the order to basically leave the next day so. Yeah, yeah, it does feel. Like timing is a little weird. We see him get sworn back in. There is a ceremony. This one isn't this pretty because it felt like they filmed it in somebody's apartment, like in the doorway. But they essentially say you're back in and they go through this little thing and they give him his tiny little apartment. And then it feels like, you know, he has a picture of his friends under his pillow.

50:13 We cut away. We cut back. And he like, looks out the window and a couple outside laughing together, hands on each other. And he's sad and he's pretty much ready to quit. So yes, it it does feel like it's 10 minutes. And that doesn't seem like a valid blot point. Maybe they thought they could edit it so that more stuff happened in between those two. But yeah, that one was a little more obvious. My my last two are pretty silly too. So one of them is just while he's gone. What you're talking about, he's replaced by Bjorn.

50:43 What? The hell happened to my desk? Well, it made the cleaning so I cleaned it. Nobody. Nobody's touched my desk. Allow him the unit or. You look out, but the guy before you, you never touched my chest. Well, that could be, but the captain, he says he wants things shipped yet. Where's my coffee? Cup Oh, I threw the damn thing out. You threw it out. Well, it was broken. But already fixed it. Well, he they filled the germs. Then you drink the coffee and those germs go in your stomach and you I get sick for sure, so I threw it out.

51:09 He threw out my coffee cup. Albert fixed it. He threw it out. I just want to say that Bjorn sounds amazing, OK? Bjorn said. That's in one of the plays, Chip shape. Bjorn straighten people's desk. You know what, I bet Hobbs will clean up his desk next time if he doesn't want to lose stuff. Bjorn just he comes in and he's just a powerhouse. He's a nice guy. He's smiling, and I feel bad that he gets nothing. He's there for one scene and he's gone, and I'm sure Bjorn will land on his feet wherever he goes because that man, he was a great, great maintenance worker.

51:40 So yes, I want Albert back, but you know who weeps for Bjorn? Oh, and you said you had two. Sure. All I was going to say was that we're only missing Moodri and Jill and the skeevy reporter, and I think we'd have had the whole gang back together. So I thought they were very close to pulling everybody into this episode. It was almost a complete set. Yeah. OK. So we'll move on to connecting the spots where we draw connections between this episode and other episodes of the show or this show and other TV shows or movies.

52:15 I've got just three different things, and one of them is one of the guest actors. I'm betting you might have it. Do you want me to take it or? As always, I'm comfortable with you stealing things from me and I just embellish. But yeah, you go ahead, grab. Yeah, because the only reason is I've only got one. I'm betting you have several. So. So it's Alan Scarf or maybe Scarfay who plays the Drevni. And I think Drevni might be a title. I don't know if it's his name. And in IMDb it didn't give a name.

52:49 I don't think a name was mentioned in the credits. But he's the Drevni in this episode. Alan Scarfay has been in three different Star Trek episodes, a Babylon Five TV movie and one episode each of Quantum Leap, Highlander and Stargate Atlantis. But the thing I'm probably most familiar with him from is the three season UN show called 7 Days. And that's a TV show that was on during the UPN days where there was like a time machine that was made partially off of alien technology from Area 51 that could allow somebody to go back in time, but only by 7 days.

53:29 And I think there was some kind of restriction in the technology, possibly the, the fuel type that wouldn't allow anybody to go back further than 7 days. And the weird, I think they might have called it the sphere, but it really looked more like a 12 sided die or a 20 sided die. And the machine required a pilot and the pilot was supposed to keep certain things in line, but everything was shaking so much. It's like, how can anybody really control that? It looks like their their hand is shaking all over the place.

53:56 Ever wish you could live your last week all over again? Well, my name is Frankie Parker and I do it all the time. I work for a secret government project experimenting in time travel. Things really get screwed up. I'm the Guinea pig they send back to take care of it. That's is you. Can only go back seven days. Let's do it again. Alan Scarfay played the director of the Back Step Project. His name was Doctor Bradley Talmage. It it's interesting Wikipedia, you know, sometimes gives a a few details. The 1 little snippet it gave was that although he was middle-aged, he has shown several times to have some excellent combat skills.

54:40 So that's our our our main guest star this week. Well, and I will say about this guy, when I mentioned before that I don't recognize actors and actresses very well with their newcomer makeup on, but I will get this feeling like I've seen you somewhere before, especially when they have a really extreme expression. This guy has a face I would call sort of warm, but maybe haughty, possibly a little menacing or holier than thou. And it just really struck me as familiar. So it doesn't help me when I just see that he's been in Voyager or Next Generation.

55:18 I've got to try and look these up. Todd and I have talked about doing like a single episode of a show and digging into it. And one of the ones we could do at some point is this guy's one of his episodes of Next Generation. It's called Data's Day. And it's one of the best episodes, not because of a just electrifying story arc. In fact, it has kind of a weak little bizarre, limping story arc. But it covers a bunch of random events in a cool way on the ship that feels really real. And he is Admiral Mindak in that.

55:53 And he gets to have kind of some twists to his character. So down the road, if Todd and I do a spotlight episode on Data's Day, you will hear me completely forget that we mentioned him and be like, this guy was on an episode of Alien Nation. That's crazy. I remember him. But yes, that's that's pretty big. And I'm always excited when I find one of these people has been on Babylon 5. So that's nice. Yeah. I think, I think Drevni is a they present it kind of like a title, like the Pope. So he's the Drevni.

56:25 And they have a parallel there where Matt is asking George, like how he can still believe in his religious ceremony when his religious leader has been defamed as a murderer. And they get that following discussion of it. So that's what I think the analogy is there. I will say some other characters, some other actors in this, there are not many that I want to bring up as much. Like there's a friend of Albert's that we see at the monastery for a second named Goran. They all have the same first name.

56:58 I can't remember what it is. Do you remember what it is? They introduced themselves as something, but one of them in the credits is just listed as in Goran, and he is in an episode of the original Flash series. And let me see, there's Yeah, most of them. They don't have a lot going on for it. The guy who played Bjorn ironically has most of the credits that I want to mention because he's been in Terminator Salvation, Casino Royale, Hunt for Red October. I, I don't remember which one he is because he is a guy with a really thin face.

57:33 I don't think he was the evil Russian. I know that doesn't seem to narrow it down, but it kind of does in Hunt for October. I'd probably recognize him if I see it again. But if you are into that kind of thing, Yvonne Guevara as Bjorn was in 647 episodes of Days of Our Lives. Wow. Yeah, I I'm sorry, listeners, I did not write down the name of the two characters he played. But if you are interested in looking up Ivan Guevara or Yvonne, if you want to say it, the accent, that's a lot of Days of Our Lives.

58:08 It's a 650 almost. And the only other carrot, the actor that I would mention is Dana Anderson. And Dana Anderson hasn't done that much. She plays Mae in this episode, the girl with the snack cart, and she doesn't have a lot of credits. She was in the short lived War of the Worlds series in the 90s that I was both evocative and kind of scarred me as a young man when I should have been doing homework instead. But what interested me about her is that she's going to come back for another alienation thing.

58:40 She's in the TV movie The Enemy Within has this character, and I could be wrong, but I think she may be the first returning side side side character that we've encountered. A lot of people are showing up again, but they play somebody different. Maybe this time they're a newcomer, maybe this time they're not a newcomer. But May is going to appear again as May shouldn't have a lot of credits except for another alien nation and War of the Worlds. So yeah. Todd said he could have sworn Dana Anderson was in the Alien Nation TV movie Dark Horizon rather than The Enemy Within.

59:17 Apparently she's in both. The actress is listed in IMDb twice due to her last name being spelled two different ways. Nick saw the entry in which Anderson is spelled as ON Under the Sen version. She was in Alien Dark Horizon as well as LA Law Wings, Northern Exposure, NYPD Blue, An Outbreak. And the other things I have for this section are just analogies. So I don't know if you had anything else for this section you wanted to mention. And I take a turn or I just get through them all. Yeah, I've got one other thing and then Dobbs Watch also.

59:51 I'm sorry, I was a little bit distracted and looking at my notes a minute ago when you were asking this, I think you were asking about the title of everybody else under the Drebni, if that's what you're asking, it was Ben, which is short for Ben on. So like with Albert being called his, his name is Glenza, so he was referred to as Ben Glenza. OK, yeah, so so the credits just say Goran. There's nobody named Goran in the whole episode, but they greet each other and he'll say Ben Glynza and he'll say Ben Goran.

1:00:21 So yes, that makes a lot more sense. Note that one of mine was that Matt brings up the Salem Rich witch trials. He doesn't say them, but he talks about how religious zealotry, which is another one of the things we've mentioned before, you have these social issues that come up that are not dated to the 80s or 90s. They are still pretty current today. And in this case, someone being so sure that they're righteous, correct, and backed up by God, that they'll do horrible things to other people, that that seems to be a constant in our world.

1:00:55 And Matt just mentions that people will go so far as to burn books. And then he pauses and he says or they'll burn other people. He doesn't say Salem witch trials, but he brings it up. You know, this episode is kind of out there, but it also feels sort of ripped from the headlines as people in charge of religions hurt other people out of fear or hate. I'm not going to give any examples, but did not weigh into it. But Matt gets to do like a little speech. And we already knew he had attitudes towards organized religion.

1:01:27 So he just, he gets to kind of get in the guy's face and like talk at him about, you know, like, what's wrong with you, People like you acting like this. So that definitely felt like it had some real world analogies. All right, let me see one thing that I have. It's actually something that was in IMDBI. Don't always look at the trivia in IMDb, but I happen to see this one. And it might have even been mentioned before here on the podcast because I know that you kind of keep track of when stars are in other things.

1:01:54 And you say that Gary Graham is one of those, I think, 3 or 4 people that are kind of like in your base score. But there have been at least two references to Vulcans in Star Trek, and one of them is in this episode. And one of them was a few episodes back in 15 with Wanda. But by coincidence, Gary Graham eventually played a recurring Vulcan character, Ambassador Soval, in several episodes of Star Trek Enterprise. So it is kind of neat for him to sometimes bring up Vulcans and he doesn't know it, but someday he's going to play a Vulcan.

1:02:29 But do you have a something else? Well, no, just that I think people who write for shows like Star Trek and enjoy it might be the exact same population that watches shows like Alien Nation. So to them, getting Gary Graham could be a much bigger deal than it might be to someone making another show. So when they're casting for something like Star Trek and somebody's like, I think Gary Graham would be on the show, these people have a greater chance of being like, oh, that would be so cool. I think that helps his chances.

1:03:02 All right. Do you have anything else? No, that's it for connecting the spots for me. OK, so I've got this week's Dobbs Watch and Dobbs this week is here as we've already talked about it. He's the one that is teasing Albert for like May lying about keeping a secret and trying to set Albert up. He also gets to yell at Albert's replacement. So he is here. He gets lines of dialogue. He's in multiple scenes enough that I didn't bother counting them. I'm guessing it's 3 or 4, not the usual 2, so he does get something to do.

1:03:37 You've already mentioned this, but Burns and Jill are the 2 that are missing this week and I had that in my notes. And since I have mentioned that I've kind of sneaked peeks ahead at future episodes. I do happen to know that Jill is in the next episode. In fact, I was trying to remember if it was this one, but it is next week's episode. And the reason I was having a little bit of trouble remembering is that both the episodes have some kind of ceremony at the house, and Jill is in the one next week, not this week.

1:04:05 The weird thing is she's there, but I don't think she has any lines of dialogue. And yes, Burns is missing this week. One of the little minor non spoiler bits of preview I'll give away is that the weird thing is, you know, we talk about how he's in the opening credits, but rarely in episodes. Well, after episode 13, when he is no longer in the opening credits, he will be in an episode. And in that episode he'll have more to do than he ever has before. And so it's weird after he's no longer a a main star and he's just a guest star, that's when he's given the most to do.

1:04:44 So yeah, that's. It we'll say I mean, since you brought up Dobbs, I talked about how much Eric Pierpoint got to do and honestly, it wasn't nearly as much, but Lawrence Hilton Jacobs Dobbs got to he got some pretty fun stuff to do in this episode. So I've gotten crossed before when they just have him like they'd pay him to come out and be on set and literally never give the man a microphone. But in this episode, he gets interact in multiple scenes, and he actually has something to do. He's not just filler or holding the coffee mug saying, you know, sounds like you need to follow up that lead or some throwaway line.

1:05:22 He's an important part of these interactions. So yeah, he got to do a few things in this one. That was good. Yeah, yeah. All right. So we'll move on to the Albert Einstein Award. And it looks like to me there are three contenders for this. You might have spotted some others. I'll go ahead and take. Yeah, so I'll go ahead and take the first one. James Polk. I think he might have been the victim at the very beginning that we just barely saw. But James Polk, he's the Yeah, that's right. I have it in my notes.

1:05:55 So he is the first been on murder victim at the very beginning of the episode. But James Polk James Knox Polk is the name of our 11th U.S. President. He was born in Pineville, NC, in the Charlotte urban area near the South Carolina border, about two hours away from me. He also attended UNC Chapel Hill and on the Wikipedia page for presidential rankings, Pulp usually ranks just outside the top 10 in most polls, but usually within the top 20 or maybe even top 15. So he's kind of sort of one of our better presidents for the most part.

1:06:36 I also looked at some of the presidential rankings and Polk's strengths are luck, willingness to take chances, foreign policy, party leadership, executive ability, avoiding crucial mistakes, crisis leadership, administrative skills and vision, setting an agenda. Unfortunately, some of his weaknesses are integrity, moral authority, and ability to ability to compromise. And so I can't help but wonder if his name was chosen on purpose since we are talking about a bid on who had left the order and so he wasn't quite doing things the way he was supposed to.

1:07:18 And like I said, Polk's weaknesses are apparently integrity and moral authority. I didn't know that until I started looking at those some of the surveys that are in the presidential rankings. So I can't help but wonder if he if that name was chosen for a reason. I it's funny you would say that, for one thing, because I don't usually read into why they've selected names. But when you say Pulp, it sounds like Poke to me, which is like a sexual joke. So I thought the first guy we find with somebody else's wife, his name is Poke.

1:07:52 James Poke. Yeah, Yeah. But yeah, other than that, Todd has said on past episodes that he's not the history person. And we have a theme here today where you are smarter if you're in your elements. So clearly, man, if it's somebody close to you personally, like geographically, the history knowledge just blossoms. You were motivated. So that was great. I think it's more accurate to say that Todd is just a stupid guy with an obsession for Wikipedia. I knew from slight previous research that James Polk is one of, I think two or three presidents that are at least from North Carolina.

1:08:30 I think they, I think anybody who was born in North Carolina and then became president moved away. And so I think James Polk is more associated with Tennessee than he is North Carolina, but he was technically born there or here. And thanks to Todd's advanced detective skills, also known as typing questions into Google, he found out that James Polk did pass through Winston Salem, NC, on a presidential tour of the South. But one source said Polk may have stopped there for less than an hour. However, Todd also discovered that his first lady, Sarah Childress Paul, attended the prestigious Salem Female Academy.

1:09:05 Salem Academy is a small private boarding school for high school age women with a focus on science, technology, engineering and math. It shares a campus with the all female Salem College, both of which are in Old Salem and Historic section of Winston Salem. Good grief, we get it. Todd lives in Winston Salem. And you might be right, it might be pronounced poke instead of Polk. Whenever I see the Li tend to pronounce it, but it could be that it's silent. But no, because I knew he's from North Carolina.

1:09:37 I knew that much already. Anything else that I just gave to you? I basically got off of Wikipedia like two or three hours ago. I think you're saying it right, and I'm using an accent. So just to be clear, listeners, I I don't think you pronounce Polk Pope. But yeah, the our other two contestants for the Albert Einstein Award are another Benon named Isaac Newton. And Matt is so tired of the names that when they're introduced, he doesn't even say a real word. He and George are both kind of like, yeah.

1:10:08 And they just start walking away. And our dream cart girl, who I said was May, they don't say it in the episode, I don't think. But the credits tell us that her last name is, oh, nays, she is Mayonnaise. So I don't know, man. I mean, you may be more passionate than me. Mayonnaise takes the win for me. But you, you did such a good biography of James K Polk, our prestigious 11th president of the United States. So he may take it. What do you think? See, that's the thing. I'm torn. It is like a three-way tie because James Polk, I mean, like I said, he's from North Carolina, barely.

1:10:46 So I I kind of leaned toward him in that way. There again, I didn't know that his weaknesses were integrity and moral authority. So I don't know, maybe it wasn't that great after all. And then there's Isaac. Is for everybody, like maybe they have to reach for it, you know, just like us trying to come up with negatives. Let me see Isaac Newton. That's the more obvious choice. But really the character himself wasn't given that much to do. And then I did not know that Mays last name was Onays until I looked in IMDb.

1:11:16 And so I noticed that today too. And in a way, I think that's creative, especially since they have to use the apostrophe. I mean, she literally has like O apostrophe and then nays. So it's almost like she's Irish.

1:11:30 But The thing is, I don't like mayonnaise either. So. So I'm torn. It's like, what? What exactly do I base my vote on? Well, here's. Let me, let me, let me make it easier for you. OK? I think we give this one to James Polk. May has another chance when she shows up again for one of the TV movies and a few episodes, and she has a shot, you know, and she's, you know, she got a little bit of a handicap because Todd doesn't like mayonnaise. But, you know, if they pull out a really good juicy name for that other movie, we'll be like, oh, this is her chance.

1:12:04 You know, she got to go up against them right now. I think we can go ahead and call James Polk the winner. OK, yeah, yeah, I'll let my vote go that way. You've made the most convincing argument for someone yet. This whole series. We ready for I have to talk about this. Yeah, yeah. So in the miscellaneous section, really I've only got two things. 1 is a big thing, 1 is a smaller thing that I didn't even think of until we started the episode. The big thing is a list of Tanktonese facts. So like I said, there's a radio report at the very beginning of the episode where they're talking about the census and a woman is complaining that there are now 271,400 newcomers, which is an increase of around 21,000 since they landed five years ago.

1:12:50 And I was mean to go back to this and do the math because even though I was a math major, I'm, I love algebra and I was good at calculus at one time. I've never done great with population increase type formulas. So I was going to have to go back and look up and see, OK, how much is is that? They're increasing every year. And I didn't get around to that. Let me see another thing. Erogenous zones. You mentioned how George explains that to Matt in one scene. And what he lists off are the small, the back, the bridge of the nose, shoulder blades and the backs of their knees.

1:13:27 And as I've mentioned in another episode, I can't help but wonder if that's where Richard Fish from from Ally Mcbeal gets it because he made a big deal in that whole TV show about like the knee pit being a Roger Zone on women.

1:13:48 Do my knee. Lang you expect to March in here whenever you feel like it and have me service your deep. Yes, quickly. I have meetings. Let me see. Bit alms are approximately 1% of the population, maybe even less. They are anatomically different, but the episode never gets specific as to how, and it's kind of implied that their genitalia is either bigger, shape differently, or both. Oh my. But again, they never come around and say, but apparently the purpose is to prepare the channel with catalyzing emission.

1:14:22 So I don't know if that's like increase the size of the channel or do some kind of lubrication thing or maybe a little bit of both. I'm not sure. Let me see three more wait. Pause. Because you said several things that I could respond to. So that in itself was interesting to me because they simultaneously don't tell you stuff. See, your imagination wanders. But they also, I mean, that is a pretty vivid description at the same time. And you did mention one of my other things, and that is that when we have our first murder victim and after a couple of other scenes, Matt and George go to that murder scene.

1:15:01 George casually reaches down to lift this sheet up while Matt is talking to him. And Matt's saying, you know, I've seen this a million times. Husband busts in and finds him in bed together and shoots him. And. But as he's talking, George is lifting the sheet up. For one thing, we see blood splatter, but they are managing to maintain tanked and knees having this livid bright pink blood. So they're going with it. The sheets were splattered with pink. He lifts the sheet up and he's looking at this guy's crotch.

1:15:34 We are seeing their faces looking at the crotch and Matt does a whole double take. And if you want to freeze frame, there are so many, There are like 5 or 6 different shots you can do of just these two grown men looking down off camera at something and Matt making the most bizarre faces. So you can only wonder what we imagine is going on down there is pretty epic in this scene. So, yeah, that was that was a big deal, that scene and just how long they spent. Like this show spends a little chunk of time with two grown men staring at some guy's junk.

1:16:16 That was an interesting choice. It was kind of hilarious to me. And the other thing you were saying, oh, this scene. So Matt is asking George because he feels bad he's dancing with Kathy, he touches her in a place that's not appropriate to touch her, he's embarrassed, and he's at. We all are pretty sure he's just asking George because he doesn't want to accidentally bump something else that's sensitive. Newcomer women and men are a lot more comfortable talking about these things. But he's following the Earthling protocol where you do not talk about private places out loud in front of someone.

1:16:50 Maybe you quietly ask someone else. So he's doing that, George misunderstands and starts laying out the moves to put on somebody, kind of excitedly comes over, sits on Matt's desk, leans, and he never does this. You already listed all of the spots. I agree with you 100%. I think David E Kelly watched Alien Nation and realized that there is a trick with censors. If you want to have ridiculously sexy scenes where you do incredibly inappropriate things, all you've got to do is make up anatomy. If you make up anatomy, you can get away with a ton.

1:17:30 So his characters on Ally Mcbeal do bizarre things that would never get past the sensor, except they're touching things that the sensors don't care about, just like in this episode. And the knee pit is a perfect example. They have knee pit episodes that are like, I think a girl's hair literally curls on camera. There's gasping and moaning and banging tables like When Harry Met Sally. They go to town on the things that you can get away with in TV because it's made-up an atom. There for you, Renee.

1:18:02 I just hope a woman enough to handle it. Me too. What are you doing? What is this? What is this Or what's that? What's he doing? John, a little knee pit action. You should give them another try. Now notice the change. Oh God. I should stop and I'll kill you. Oh my God, look at me when you say that, Renee. Oh my God. Pull me in your bosom.

1:18:32 So yes, I think David E Kelly straight up stole from Alien Nation and considering how many people are poached from the show I think it's pretty obvious. He also mentions like Matt asks what George looks for in a girl. I transcribed this entire section. Matt does say you know what about? And he doesn't say private parts. And George says dismissively that humans are obsessed with genitalia and we are not. And Matt asks what he looks for. And George looks off into space and he says the speckles going down the back of the neck into the fine line.

1:19:05 And then he talks about ear valleys when they end in like a swirling little S shape. And then he says, any more of this and I'll need a hot shower. And he claps Matt on the back and walks away. So that was a ah, That was a great scene. I don't know why, but for some reason, as a young man, when Matt asks about Tanktonese women and erogenous zones, George says, are you dating a Tanktonese woman? Is it Kathy? I like Kathy. That just stuck with me. He's so genuine. He's like, I like Kathy too, George.

1:19:41 So yes, you can do another one now, but you've mentioned a few of those. Let me see, Albert Tanktonese name is Glenza Mantoya, and I thought that was interesting because I don't know if we've ever heard anybody's last name. And I can't help but wonder, is that a last name? If so, is it a family name? Or since the only people to say that were other people in his order is it? Also maybe a title, but a title that is attached on to the end of the name instead. And I'm not sure that we're supposed to be sure.

1:20:15 I I don't know. Usually when we've heard a tank Denise name, it's only one word. So I thought that was interesting. Let me see. And then two things that have kind of already been mentioned, and that is that Drevni is the title of the leader of the been on and that as the leader of the Ganem's workplace, Grazer has to wash the bed, arms, feet. And I assume that that's true and that that is part of the ritual. But it does make you wonder, how did that translate to them being on a slave ship? Does that mean that a slave driver or like maybe the like, foreman of a work group or something, was that the person who had to to wash the bed, arms, feet?

1:21:00 I just can't help but wonder how that translates to their previous life on the slave ship. And there is a part of me that can't help but wonder, is that really a real ritual? Or was that just their way of messing with the captain? And I don't think so, but they don't seem like the type to do that. But it's also kind of a strange ritual, so. Well, well, now that you say it out loud again, Nick misses subtext like constantly. But if you are on the slave ship and you are forced to work jobs that maybe as a culture you wouldn't think they would work.

1:21:33 So the Ben, we see them all in a monastery, but on the slave ship they have jobs. So the idea of having a foreman that they're having to go work in some section come and literally like clean their feet as they have to walk in some section. They they're dirty walking in like that, that I connect with, that I get there, what they're trying to say there and have the person who's the boss of that section, it's like acknowledging how special the bent on is and that they're lowering themselves to like even step foot there or something.

1:22:04 Wash the dirt of my area off. That's a that's really, really cool. But yeah, I wouldn't have thought of that until you were like spelling it out. One of mine is related to Grazer. I would just like to take this time to say that Grazer sucks. This is his character. He's not enough of a jerk or terrible person to be like a a Ted Knight character from Mary Tyler Moore or too close for comfort. And he's definitely not a Michael Scott. He's just like an ass that you laugh at. He's just enough to be like, uh, what a twerk.

1:22:38 So he's like a foot shorter than everybody. That's how they cast it. And he's just generally like a little creeper. I don't know, he's a punk. So that's that's how he plays it. That's what the characters like. I just razor. He makes everybody look better. I mentioned the pink blood. Continuing. I did want to say that when they talk, some of the speech in Tanktonese goes so quickly that even the most committed nerd, I am pretty confident, could not try and transcribe it. But hearing them say certain things, even if it's I'm sorry or thank you, it really felt like somebody was putting a lot of work into the language.

1:23:17 And I kind of appreciated that. And Todd already mentioned the Star Trek reference. I just wrote it out. But when they find the husband passed out in the hall, when the wife and Venom are murdered, Matt says, can't you guys just, like, touch a pressure point and knock yourselves out? And he's like, wait, yeah, that may be Star Trek. And he's not trying to be funny. He's genuinely getting his aliens confused. So that was that was, that was a nice little shout out. Intentional or not, you have anything else for this section?

1:23:47 I think I have one more, two more. Yeah, so I do have one more item, but before I get to that, you know, I've mentioned before that I have the episode, I usually have the episode on in the background, on mute, just in case I catch something visually while we're talking. And this episode is already finished and it's moved on to the next episode. And so I'm getting actually, I've now passed the scene that I've was talking about before where Eric Pierpoint is just acting his butt off. And I mean, that episode, this episode that we're reviewing next week is just amazing when it comes to acting, directing, writing.

1:24:25 I can't wait to review next week's episode. But anyway, one of the things I did not even think about when it comes to this episode until after I rewatched it this past time is kind of related to what I mentioned earlier about how on The Orville they make that one twist with the genders for the Mocklin race. And how if they're supposedly male, that means men are going to be married to men. But it's not even a gay thing because supposedly that's their only gender. And then when they find out maybe there's not total truth to that, then that opens up other things.

1:25:03 And then how they choose to deal with, you know, a possible second gender. It kind of is a very allegorical storytelling way of approaching mostly gender identity issues, but also to a certain extent, sexual preference issues. And, and this episode does that in a somewhat less obvious way. And after I rewatched it, I realized, wow, without even realizing, I'm not even sure the writers did on purpose. This is kind of like a transgender episode before that was even a hot topic. Because because I've already mentioned the Ben alms, even though they look mostly male like the Ganoms, they do have different parts.

1:25:44 They've got a different purpose. They are technically 1/3 gender. But at the end of this episode, Albert goes back to not being a part of the Ben ALM order and basically living the lifestyle of a Ganom even though he is biologically Ben ALM. And so, like I said, in a roundabout way, this is kind of a transgender episode. And again, I'm not even sure the writers thought of that when they did it, but in retrospect, it kind of is. Well, and it leaves room for the idea of Matt and the overarching theme of finding out people are different from you and at first thinking it's weird, then gross, then inappropriate, then lecherous or creepy or I don't know what the right word is, and kinky.

1:26:35 And then eventually discovering that, you know, there could be beauty in it. There could be something you could just respect and people and their differences. I feel like you guys also on Discerning Geeks, didn't you do an episode about Enemy Mine? Yes. The review of the movie Enemy Mine is episode 12 of the Discerning Geeks Portal podcast from September 2020, Todd said. Please forgive the audio issues in that episode. We find out halfway through that movie that the significant alien character is 1 gender and self fertilizing.

1:27:11 And at the time my little 80s brain was just melted. I don't know, that was shocking. It was wonderful. It's played really well. But yes, like you said, this is before sci-fi is quietly going into places that the rest of society wanders 20 years later, and it's like clutching its pearls about. So yes, we're crossing frontiers here. Let me see. I have a couple things I do want to say, and I don't know if you're going to bring back the head explodometer, but you've already done enough for that to be merited.

1:27:42 But they do have this little line in here where George is just beginning to explain the process to Matt, where they're standing over the first dead body or no. Later on, they're having this conversation because Matt is saying that they don't even know the guy's name. And George is saying the wife probably set it up, that the wives usually set it up. Matt is incredulous about that as well. And George looks at him and just says the line. After all, it is her body. And he walks away. And again, this is 1989 listers.

1:28:15 Yeah. Yeah. But that was just, I think Matt is just like he he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. But he's still reeling from all of the concepts hitting him at once. But that was just, it was a line thrown in there. My last thing I really just need to mention this episode is that 13 year old Nick encountering it when Matt is dancing with Kathy and he puts his hand in the small of her back and she tells him it's an erogenous stone. Someone had to explain to me what that term was.

1:28:49 And I have to tell you, we don't always feel like kids Listen to us. I turned my ears all the way on and I carved it in stone when it was explained to me. And I think part of that was because of how Tarry Trees is playing this. When I tell you this actress, if you guys are not interested in watching the show, you put on the scene at the beginning, you'll see a couple get blown away with a shotgun really fast. And then you'll see a weird dance lesson when Matt puts his hand in the wrong place. This woman, it is not played for laughs.

1:29:22 It is done seriously and she is evocative, but she looks like her eyes are about to cross and she's like bottom lip. And it's like like she's saying you, you can't do that. But at the same time she's almost saying, but you know, maybe it's cool. And just like it is, it is a it is a powerful scene. She also does this thing where she touches the side of her head, her temple to his temple, and he's like looking at her and she's explains that this is like a Peck on the cheek. Well, he does this back to her at the end.

1:29:58 And this is what I was talking about, where my memory is that of a little kid. So I really missed a lot of the subtlety. I remembered the scene vividly and I remembered it wrong. So seeing it as an adult, it was very cool. It was a different scene than I thought it was. It was very sweet and kind of tender because now that she's taught him that language, it's kind of like Matt leaned over and gave her a small Peck on the cheek. And once again, this actress looks at him like she's just fanning herself like that is.

1:30:34 So. Yeah. I don't know if I'm just so smitten with Terry Trees or if it's how she plays Kathy. Or. The director said, look, when he touches your back, I need you to look like you are almost there and you're trying very gently to tiptoe your way back. But she made me believe it, man. And yeah, if that converted me at 13, I'm pretty confident that did a big number on David E Kelly. Because now that I'm thinking about it, he totally repeats that scene over and over again. Yeah. OK. All right. Coming to realizations here.

1:31:10 That is it for me, for I have to mention this. OK, so I think we've only got one thing left and that is ratings. Do you want to start or do you want me to? Go Sure. I always give a Star Trek alumni score or an STA. We have a base for for this episode for George, Susan, Matt and Grazer who is in this episode. We don't have Uncle Moodri, alas. And that base for the only other one I found to go along with it was Alan Scarfy that we mentioned near the beginning, bringing us up to one of our lowest scores we've ever had, STA score of five.

1:31:50 So yeah, that's. That's darn disappointing. But I also rate these episodes on a watch skip basis in case, unlike me, you would like to revisit Alien Nation but you don't know if you should watch them all. You definitely need to watch this episode. Yeah. This is like, I think this is easily my favorite episode so far. I'm not saying I need to watch it every year or something, but I just, there's so much. This is the whole shebang. We have social messaging that we've mentioned before. We've got alien culture clash.

1:32:25 We've got the sweetness of the Francisco family, Matt confronting his biases and growing, the promising interactions with the pretty lady next door. We even got a little police stuff thrown in, if you're into that kind of thing. They can't all be like this. But this episode is like jam packed with stuff. So yes, please don't skip this one. Oh yeah, I would agree. I mean, this is important episode and like I said, one that I've been looking forward to for quite a while, so my rating may not be much of a surprise.

1:32:53 Do letter grades and I'm giving this an A minus. As usual, it's Matt and police work that dragged the episode down a little bit. And and keep it from that upper level of being an A or an A+. Otherwise, the alien stuff is great. And like I said, those last few minutes are amazing. I mean, you you kind of went into detail about the moment where they touch each other's temples. You know, that's great. But practically everything in that last scene or two is just amazing. So yeah, this is a a really great episode of science fiction in general, and even more specifically for this show.

1:33:32 And I like that you rate these things harshly. I like that you're because there are there are things that if any of you were not loving the episode, you could kind of pick apart. There are things about how the monastery is set up or how quick a scene has to be or how clipped things are. But yeah, when you look past all that and you're just watching an 80s show, it's like, wow, they. So let's look ahead. Coming up next time on Alienating Ourselves, join us as we explore Season 1 Episode 10, the game Todd's already talked about a little bit, so I hope you guys are stoked.

1:34:08 I'm both stoked and a little bit nervous. The Day of Descent, the 5th anniversary of the Tank Deniz's liberation from slavery with their ship's arrival on Earth, finds George Francisco depressed. A lethal form of gambling from the ship may be coming to Earth. OK, so spoiler alert, it's definitely coming to Earth. I mean it's like here, you don't need to be vague. IMDb episode description. So I don't know if modern Nick will like this episode, but kid Nick certainly remembers it it. It made a lasting impression.

1:34:39 Join us next week as we relive trauma and find out if it's even more fun the second time. As Todd and I continue alienating ourselves, I continue to be Nick. I'm Todd, thank you for joining us. We'd love to see some reviews wherever you listen to podcast. If you love us, like us, or can barely tolerate us, please give us five stars. If you really hate us, please give us four stars. If you give us three stars or lower, you too will need someone anatomically different to prepare your canal with. Catalyzing a mission As always, milk.

1:35:11 Be as fresh or as sour as you prefer it to be. And the next time you invite Co workers over for the public conception of your next child, give them more than half a day's notice. It's the right thing to do. Have a great week. Cha cha cha everybody.